Utopia V (a)

 Volume V Soviet Union: such a state, such a system, there is such a person, I said are good, righteous; if training in the management of national and personal qualities of respect, this is a good system So, for the rest of the various systems are evil, wrong. evil system can be divided into four categories. Version: Which four? Sue: When I was just going 〔four system that appears to be a natural order according to list out, sitting not far away from the Adeimantus glassy Lema Hawes reached out and start from the top coat Glaucon's shoulder, pulling him closer and said a few whispers, in which we only hear the words . So I asked them:〕 you both say is lazy, you want to avoid all the debate is not trivial for a large segment of the whole, does not attempt to explain to slip past us. you want to casually mention a few words to leave the territory, it seems that the issue on women and children, that is, the Santos? A: You're right, but the so-called in mind what kind of approach. We have been waiting a long time, hope to hear your child's birth and nurturing of the question what opinions to see if you are talking about women and children on what the public description of the problem. We feel that stake, and made right for the country has a very significant far-reaching impact. Now you do not make it clear this issue, want to go back and start another question. You have to discuss other issues like that, like this thing clearly understood, in this as you have heard before, and we are determined not to let you leave here. cell: Well, I also voted in favor. color: Socrates, you can safely see this as our unanimous resolution. Sue: Oh, What the hell are you, and I do make life difficult? you want to debate something from scratch, the state system. This is how much of a debate cause Yeah, I always thought that the debate be over, it felt very fortunate. Because no objection as long as you accept my idea, I'll be satisfied. you do not see, you made this request to a cause much heated debate. I had expected to , so I try to avoid stuck to pull it out it! color: cough! us here do? you think we have come to gold rich, not to listen to you? Sue: there is a limit attendance thing too. Grid : Socrates ah, for a thoughtful people, to listen to that conversation, the limit is off to the side dead. So, do not worry about us, please do not bore you, you have to answer our questions and tell Us: Do you think we should escort the women and children how to return to the public; children from birth to formal education, this phase of education recognized by the most difficult period, this period should be how to develop them. Therefore, Please tell us how to do it all. Sue: my good friend, which is not easy to explain; here than the issue discussed earlier, there are more doubts. because people will doubt, I suggest is not feasible ; say it works, people will suspect that this practice is not the most good. So, my friend, ah, I'm afraid to touch this issue, I fear that this theory is just a fantasy. cell: do not be afraid . We are good for your audience, trust, and can understand your difficulties. Su: old friends, you mean these words to encourage me? grid: Yes. Sue: But counter-productive. because, if I For quite sure I want to say, then this is a very good encouragement. When a man and like-minded friends together to discuss priority concern to us, had an idea, speak up and naturally both ways, clearly and logically. However, if, as my current situation, bamboo, temporary scared, it was terrible and dangerous. I am not afraid of people laughing, it was childish; I'm afraid the truth is lost in most places should not be wrestling pay fell that he fell not, also all my friends fell into a lot of drag! Therefore, Glaucon, ah, I said before, I first pay tribute to the goddess of revenge, begged her forgiveness. In my opinion, missed murder against himself is still small, confused beauty and ugliness, good and evil, justice and injustice, deceive confuse the people, against himself, Yu. so this thing is an adventure, is the only enemy in the middle of dry and not friends dry. So you can not be encouraged to increase my courage. cell (smiling): Socrates ah! is your occasional mistakes in the debate, bad for us, we release you, the same as in manslaughter case , pardon you guilty, not you deceived us. So you bold and go on! Sue: Well, then, in law, who was acquitted persons, on the innocence of; since the law is so, then we This presumably is the case. cell: So, go on it, do not protested. Sue: Well, now we must go back to those in accordance with the order may be long overdue should be told what to talk about. men after a show After the women on stage, it might be a good idea, especially because you anxious to listen to me. For, as we said earlier, as growth and educated man to say, I think they keep with the use of children and The only correct way for women to be like the man we had started discussing the issue, as suggested ①. Do you remember that time we have tried to make arguments that they should guard the flock, who do? ① the use of animals for example. See 375m376, 422D, 466D, 467B, 491DmE, 537A, 546AmB, 564A. cell: Yes. Sue: Let us keep this analogy, the same for women development and training, to see to say the appropriate inappropriate. cell: how a training Training ? Sue: so. We do not expect to bitch out with search dogs to help search, participate in all security work? or let bitch hiding nest and just birth doggy, tending doggy, let alone any guard dogs, sheep work? cells: Apart from the female as the weaker dogs, other than the public's as strong, we should all work with the dry. Sue: If you do not for one kind of mammal feeding give the same training as , you can without distinction to use them? cell: can not. Sue: Well, if we use the women without distinction, according to use men as women we must first give the same education. cell: Yes. Su : We have always been in music and gymnastic education of men. cell: Yes. Sue: Well, for the same use of women, we must likewise with two lessons to educate women, and also to give them military education. Specification: According to what you say seems right. Sue: Well, we have just mentioned, many of the recommendations, if implemented, then because of violations of the customs of the present, I am afraid might make people feel funny. cell: indeed. Sue: You see what is the most ridiculous? Do not apparently naked woman in the gym, and men with ① to exercise? not only young woman to do so, there are older women, old man, as in the gym, like, wrinkles sounded, it looks very pleasing to the eye, but they are still there, and exercise it. This is not funny no longer do? ① practice of ancient Greece when men are naked. ; naked practice place. problem, since we started to discuss, and have to stick to it. literati their witticisms, sarcasm, then we will surely hear, do not be afraid. Specifications: You are quite right. Sue: Since we have set out, in the Legislative Despite the difficulties encountered on the journey, it must not retreat. We ask those critics abandon the light so the state of being, a little serious; ask them to look at the Greeks, in the not too long ago, but as is now the most savage, that naked men for others to see ridiculous it is shameful. When people first began to Crete and Sparta was naked drill, you know not let that time the genius camp opened comic artists used to joke it? grid: it was. SUE: But, since (I think) experience has shown that all of these things naked is better than the secretive, but also, the eyes seem funny that the most rational thing in the face of the good things often fatally ridiculous. Well, this also explains the following words of such people but nonsense: they do not believe that evil is ridiculous, actually think that another is ridiculous; they do not ironic ignorance and evil, But to be ridiculed by staring at another phenomenon; they solemnly other efforts to build a standard of beauty, but not the standards of good for the United States. cell: You're absolutely right. Sue: We have to first agree thing is, these proposals will work. is not it? because both the speaker is a joke or really serious, we must be prepared to ask the question: Women's Day according to their performance of duties of all men, do competent, or or can not do anything, or only do a limited number of them? If one of the few capable, war is not included? We begin the discussion, which gradually in-depth, can be most happy conclusion. This is not the most a good way? grid: This is an excellent method. Sue: So we want to our imaginary opponents was asked to put forward our own criticism is so because no one defended them, only to hear our side of the word? format: You can do this. Sue: Well, or let us say a word for them: When your country has long been agreed that the principle that everyone should do their work naturally suitable. cell: I think we did agree to it, is not it? Sue: They will say: not between men and women there is a great natural difference? when we acknowledge, they will ask us to do different jobs for men women, to take care of these natural differences? When we talk, they would go on to ask: both men and women said should have the same job, said they have great natural difference between it not contradictory in committing wrong? how to do? you smart people can answer this question? cells: To answer this I immediately sudden problem, it is not easy. I only ask you to look for us to reply in this regard, how do you say with words. Sue: Dear Glaucon, of these difficulties, there are other many similar difficulties are I've read to, so I'm afraid of women and children how to reach the public, and how education legislation. cell: Really, this is not like an easy thing. really not easy. Sue: Of course not easy. But since the water fall , and then whether it is in a small pond or in the sea, we no turning back, had to swim. Version: polar is. Sue: Well, we'll have to go on tour and hope ride out this debate. I hope that musicians Arian Dolphin ① our pack away, or there are other ways to what first aid. ① Jian Herodotus, can find a way out. We recognize that many different endowments should have different occupations, men and women have different endowments. but different endowments we say people should have the same job, this not a kind of on our own refute it? lattice: Exactly. Sue: Dear Glaucon, arguing the power of art really is! cells: how is it? Sue: I see many people even can not help but to fall in this trap, they think in the debate, in fact, but in a fight it. because they do not know how to study how to identify when a word of their different meanings, only to find that literally contradictory. They quibble, talk back to each other, not as a dialectic in type of discussion. cell: Yes, on many occasions has this, but do you think we here like this? Sue: Yes, absolutely. In any case, I fear we are here to have unwittingly plunged into a quarrel text dangerous. cell: how could this be it? Su: not the same endowments should not be engaged in the same profession. We this principle literally stay the course, preoccupied, but we never stop to think about, not the same endowments What does that mean the same endowment what does that mean, is not the same endowments do not give the same occupation, of the endowment given of the same occupation, what does that mean? format: We are indeed not considered. Sue: It seems, according to this principle, we can ask ourselves: bald people and people with long hair or strange the same endowment; if we agree that they are a strange gift, we will ban long hair do not shoemaker shoemaker against bald people do, or to prohibit the bald people do not prohibit long hair shoemaker who do shoemaker. cell: this ridiculous extreme. Sue: ridiculous because we are talking about the same endowment differences, not absolute , unlimited, but only related to the industry, with IDC. such as a medical man and a woman has the ability, there is the same endowment. you think, right? grid: Yes. SUE: But a male doctor and endowment of a male wood is different. cell: indeed different. Sue: So, if between men and women found that a particular male or female is more appropriate to a profession, we can assign a male or a career women. However, if we find between the sexes, the only difference is the physical difference, however, negative fertilization children, positive place fine children, and we can not accordingly to the conclusion that there should be between men and women that we are talking about the difference between occupations; we believe that our guardians and their wives should be as professional as the same is. Specifications: You are quite right. Sue: Secondly, we would like to invite those naysayers who told us that the construction State contributions to technical and vocational, which is only suitable for women, which is only suitable for men it? cells: in any case that you get fair and reasonable to ask. Sue: Maybe some people will like you just stated that: all of a sudden not easy to find a satisfactory answer, just give them time to think about it, this does not too difficult. cell: he might say. Sue: So, can we request those who oppose us have been with us for We may be able to prove to him that, in terms of governance of a country is not only a man with a thing as a woman can not serve? cells: Sure. SUE: Well, let us ask him to answer the question. something people can be gifted to another person without talent is based on what? is because a person is easy to learn difficult to learn another one, right? is not because of some people for a study to understand, will be able to understand analogy, replicability; some people to learn for a long time not even remember what it learned? is not because of some physical fitness for the mind to fully service the body but some people do hinder the development of the mind ? you have anything else, as every issue can be used to distinguish between good talent and good talent there is no basis for it? , there a people's activities, from any of these ways, men are not better than women? we do not list details this activity, such as weaving, cooking, pastry, etc., a woman self-proclaimed expert, if a man wins the They feel shy, afraid of becoming a laughing stock? cell: You're right. We can say that one gender in all things are far inferior to the other sex. Although in many things, many women are indeed more than many good men But overall, the situation is as you say. Sue: Well, my friends, none of the work of administering the country, as a woman in the dry and exclusively female, or because men in the dry and the exclusive men. all kinds of talents found in both sexes equally. According to Nature, a variety of positions, the woman both men can participate, but in general, the woman fills weaker than men. cell: Quite right. Su : Well, we want to take all the positions are allocated to men and did not assigned to women? cells: ah, how the line? Sue: I think we say good; some of the women had engaged in natural medicine, and some No, some women have musical talent, and some do not. Specifications: True. Sue: We can not say: some of the women athletic, love the fighting, and some women do not like fighting nature, do not love sports? cells: able to speak . Sue: We can not say that some of the same love of knowledge, wisdom and some disgust, some staunch, and some weak? cells: could say. Sue: So, some women have served as guardians of talent, some do not This can; As a man Can not we choose according to the same endowment of men to defend or not? grid: Yes. Sue: Well, women have the same man can be suitable for the job as national defender, the only difference is that some of these strong men weak woman Bale. cell: apparently so. Sue: So should choose this woman and this man who lived with the same negative guard duties, as men woman similar to similar endowments. cell: Of course. Sue: The same should be given the same capacity endowment, is not it? grid: Yes. Sue: It's added back to the front. We agree to escort the wives of the music and sports on the exercise, not against nature. Specification: There is no doubt. Sue: So our legislation is not unrealistic fantasy, since the proposed laws are the laws of nature. It seems the practice of'd pop the heads is not natural. cell: It seems so. Sue: Well, we The issues to consider are: our proposals will work? If feasible, then they are not the best? cells: is the problem. Sue: We have agreed is workable, is not it? grid: Yes . Sue: Well, we have to agree on the second question is: we suggest is not the best? cells: Obviously yes. Sue: Well, to foster security, we are not on the women and men in two different education methods, particularly because both women and men, we provide the natural endowment is the same. cell: It should be the same education. Sue: Well, for the following question, what do you think? cells: What problem? Soviet Union: Problems is: Do you think men are any better or worse, some, or all men are the same? cells: They certainly are not the same. Sue: Well, we are established in this country, which is the better man man? is received the kind we have described the guardians of education, or are highly educated shoemaker, shoe-making technology do? grid: This is a ridiculous question. SUE: I understand. But tell me, is the guardian of not the best citizens? cell: is the best. much better. Sue: Well, is not the female security guard who is the best women? cell: is the best. Sue: a country can make for these outstanding women and men, what else do better than this? cells: no. Sue: This is subject to what we described the results of education in music and gymnastics, right? cells: Of course yes. Sue: Well, we have The proposed legislation is not only possible, but also the best for the country. cell: Indeed yes. Sue: Well, the woman security guard who must practice nudity, since they are the virtues of clothes. They must join with the men of war, and perform other obligations of guardians, which is their sole responsibility. In these efforts, some of them bear the relatively mild, because the relatively frail female body. If any man of woman (for the best motives) nude practice to be laughed at, as the poet Pindar goes to United States, is harmful to the ugly, legal issues, we can be said to have crossed the first wave, and finally Fortunately no Zao disaster. We provided the man with the woman security guard who must serve in the same position; and fairly consistently proved that this proposal not only is a feasible and useful. cell: Indeed, you cross the waves no small it! Sue: You should see a second wave, you could not say the first big wave. cell: Well, go on , let me see. Sue: As the above argument and the results of all the previous arguments, in my opinion, is a follows the law. cell: What? Sue: These women should go to the men there were, no one Any member shall not monogamous nuclear family. Similarly, children are also the public, parents do not know who their children, their children do not know who their parents. Specification: This is more than that of a larger front the waves, and raise doubts as to this proposal is not feasible, there is no benefit. Sue: ah, there is nothing good on, I do not doubt this point, no one will deny that women and children have the greatest benefit of all public . But if it works? my opinion, this issue will cause great controversy. cell: two questions have to be big competition and a special dispute. Sue: Do you mean to say, I want to Passing Le. I had hope that you agree with this proposal is useful, so I can evasive to discuss the problem if it works. cell: you'll never slip in the past, I found it! you must not go, you have two proposals are to say logic. Sue: Well, I am willing to be punished, but please forgive me a break. There are so one kind of lazy, they walk alone, head in the clouds, not anxious to find ways to achieve their aspirations, their temporary Geqi not May not bother to consider the problem viable and feasible; tentatively deemed to have got his wish, and then imagine those events in the arrangements together, happily describes how to implement how to achieve; lazy to do their original more soul lazy. I also committed the wrong and would like to postpone the problem if it works, and return to study it again. Now we assume that this is feasible; in your permission, I am willing to explore the governed in their first When put into practice, how to arrange things. while also prove that the arrangements for the country for the Guardian has great benefits. I am prepared to discuss this issue with you first and then consider other issues, if you agree, then. cell: I agree Please go on. Sue: Well, I thought, governance, and their assistants are true, then if the auxiliary must be willing to accept the command, and control must issue an order mm in some things decreed by law, in others we things to their own discretion, in accordance with the spirit of the law an order. cell: probably yes. Sue: So, assuming you elect the legislators, some men, while a number of elected women, these women, like the quality and these men and then distributed to the men these women. These men and women ate together, there is no private wealth; each other together, exercise together, the needs of the natural causes of gender combination. I said this is not an inevitable results? grid: This is not a natural geometry, but the lust of the inevitable. for most people in terms of action, passion, than by the geometry must have greater enforcement power and persuasion. Sue: be true . But say, Glaucon, if gender behavior or any other behavior that they have no order, chaotic, which in a country where happiness is blasphemous. Our management are absolutely not allow this. cell: Yes This is not right. Sue: So understand, arranged marriages should be a solemn event sanctity of marriage if the solemn and sacred, it can be the most beneficial. Specifications: True. Sue: So, how do the most good for it? Glaucon, please tell me, I see some dogs in your home and a lot of pure cock, on their mating and reproduction have not you pay attention? cell: What? Sue: First, among mm Despite these pure They are some varieties mm is not proof of something more excellent than others do? grid: Yes. Sue: So, you are all Duidai to be breeding, or is selected with the greatest attention to breeding the best varieties it? cell: I choose to breed the best. Sue: Then again, you select the age of the youngest, or choose the old, or try to choose those who are the prime of life to reproduce it? cell: I vote for those who are the prime of life. Sue: If you do not like selection, you do not want your dog and cock declining species it? grid: Yes. Sue: horses and other mammals how? things would be different? format: If not, then pigs fly? Sue: Oh my God! my dear friend, this principle applies to humans if the same words, we need to come up with more clever ruler wrist it! cells: applicable. But why is it that needs clever wrist ? Sue: Because they use a lot of the kind we've talked about drugs ①. of the willing with the provisions of meals, patients without medication, regular doctor can deal with. If you encounter patients who need medication, we know to dare dare need a doctor had got. ① analogy. 389B at the same meaning as before. cell: Yes. But what is the problem with our relationship? Sue: Well, probably governed the interests of the governed in order to be sometimes had to use a few lies and deceit. I think we have said, they are used as a medicine. cell: Yes, right. Sue: Well, in terms of their marriage and childbearing, the for together, on the contrary, the worst and the worst combination to do less. the best who must train the next generation of growth, while the worst are not raising the next generation, if the variety of words to maintain the highest quality; in addition to treatment above, people should not know these things to process. Otherwise, the guardian of the trouble is not bound to quarrel with each other solidarity. cell: Quite right. Su: According to the law must have holiday, the bride and groom gather to feast, the festival to enjoy the gods, the poet as hymns, I wish He Jiali. the amount of the number of marriages, taking into account the war, disease and other factors are at the discretion of the governed; citizens to maintain an appropriate population as possible, city Buzhi Yu is too large or too small. cell: Yes . Sue: I would like to draw some clever ways must be designed so that failure in the courtship, when each had to blame their bad luck and can not blame the governed. cell: Yes, true. SUE: I think When the young men prove their bravery in the Great Patriotic War impeccable contributions, must give honor and bonuses, and give more opportunities to meet women, get from them as much as possible descendants. cell: on the very . Sue: the children born to manage these things will bring support officers. These officials or male or female, or both men and women. because these men are also open to women office. cell: Yes. Sue: outstanding in children I think they will go to the nursery, to the governess Farm support; governess Farm area to live in another city. As for the general or other birth defects is born a child, they will be dealt with in secret, everybody know the situation . cell: Yes. This is to keep the governed a necessary condition for pure breeds. SUE: They control things parenting in mothers with milk, they lead to the nursery feeding mothers, but they tried not to recognize their children. If the mother's milk is not enough, they find another nurse. They will pay attention to not let too much time breastfeeding mothers, to give children something to the vigils, and other trouble nanny and governess Farm shop and go. cell: defender of you wife, child-rearing thing, arranged so easy! Sue: That it should be. Now let us turn to the second part of our planning. We have said that children should be born in their parents when young and strong. Specifications: True. Sue: Do you agree that energy to the best of times a woman can be said about two decades, the man is three years? format: you have to choose which years? Su: women should be from twenty years old to four-year-old support for the country children, men should have a running speed from the fastest to fifty-five years of age. cell: This is the men and women both physically and mentally energetic time. Sue: So, if more than this age or any less than this age children to the country people, we say that this is not just blasphemy. because they have children (if you do not find it) are not men and women priests and blessings of the whole city in prayer pray every time that an official mm wedding can get, pray for outstanding contributions to the country's next generation born to parents than the older generation to become better, more beneficial to the country that children are ignorant mm, and the product of sexual immorality. cell: I am on . Sue: The same law also applies to this situation: a man still in the prime of middle-aged woman with a still sexual immorality, without the permission of the governed. because we say they left a bastard to the country, it is not legal and blasphemous. cell: Absolutely. Sue: But I think women and men after a year of birth, we let the man live with any woman, in addition to daughters and mothers, daughters, mother, daughter and mother. As for the woman and any man can also get along with, except his son, father, or father, the son of the father and son. We must warn them, in any event not to have to see the light of the fetus conceived, if not prevent, it must be treatment, because the future generations should not be dependent. cell: the words you speak are very reasonable. but how they will identify each of the father, daughter and you have just talked about all kinds of family relations? Su: They are difficult to identify. But there is a way, that is, when they have a done a bridegroom middle, he will get married after all in his ten months or seven months, the boy was born as his son, the girl as his daughter; they call him father. He again called the children of these children grandchildren, the grandchildren of his peers called for the grandparents. All children regarded their parents born during the students called for the brothers and sisters, boys and girls . They would not have our kind of just talked about sex. However, the law permits brothers and sisters living together, draw lots to decide if the God of Delphi said it also agreed with the words. cell: Absolutely. Sue: So, Glaucon, This is what I ...